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14 hours ago [-]
epsteingpt 1 days ago [-]
The core fiction that enables the university to work is a dedication to 'truth' and progress through discussion. Safety and freedom is part of that bargain. Universities have failed on those accounts.
That breaks down when there isn't open discussion on campus. Communists were jeered but essentially allowed on campus in the 60s and 70s, even at the height of the cold war.
The left now holds a place of orthodoxy in the universities and power structures. Whether the 'right' can break it back into an enforced balance is yet to be seen.
Until then, the central tie of an otherwise diverse institution will break down and break into fragments. Which would be a shame. The opposition needs to "live" somewhere!
nixon_why69 1 days ago [-]
I think its better to take aim at "safetyism" rather than the left or right. The last couple years have seen the right become increasingly good at weaponizing it although the left did have a head start.
Note that the current wave of attacks are all justified by safetyism, they're pushed by an anti-semitism task force that's encompassed any anti-war sentiment.
mastermage 23 hours ago [-]
I think these comparisons between left and right, always break down when one side clearly does not want others to live. I am fine with opposition when we can both agree on the fundamentals that every person deserves to live (and probably a good life too not just barely scraping by). There are alot of people now again, that do not belive in this fundamental principle.
pjc50 22 hours ago [-]
> The opposition needs to "live" somewhere!
Not if they're systematically wrong about everything. There's no need to keep an intellectual disease vector in the academy any more than there would be a moral obligation to open your windows to the malaria mosquitos.
Climate change and medicine are the largest, most visible aspects of this, but it's intellectual dishonesty all the way down.
Note that this has got much worse since about the Obama era. There are no true small-c conservative intellectuals any more.
joquarky 6 hours ago [-]
The 2008 financial crisis is when the intellectually honest conservatives threw in the towel and let the sociopaths take over.
awkward 14 hours ago [-]
Safety and freedom is incompatible with direct political control. Respect for truth is a false value if what truth is is to be put to a vote or changed to match the whims of whoever is in power.
21asdffdsa12 16 hours ago [-]
The only solution is to recognize that bipartisanship is unavoidable and to found conservative or really liberal universities.
xorvoid 16 hours ago [-]
Strongly disagree. This is just increasing the "political temperature". The only true solution is people learning to talk and disagree with each other without "taking their ball and going home". Sorting ourselves into ideological camps on everything is destructive.
abeppu 16 hours ago [-]
> That breaks down when there isn't open discussion on campus. Communists were jeered but essentially allowed on campus in the 60s and 70s, even at the height of the cold war.
I think that's a misleading telling of the history. During the 40s and 50s a lot of people were fired for suspected or real links to communism and some schools even demanded loyalty oaths. Courts struck down a bunch of laws that were used to fire people but many rulings didn't land until the 60s. Angela Davis was famously fired in 1969.
whattheheckheck 1 days ago [-]
[flagged]
TimorousBestie 1 days ago [-]
To play devil’s advocate since I’ve been a little energetic in this thread already, I’ll go ahead and agree that they’re probably correct about single-income, two-parent homes having better outcomes for children.
I disagree that it should always be the woman staying home (or always the same parent through the children’s adolescence, or that both parents should have different genders, or) but I think the premise is sound.
They’re also objectively correct that women should, on average, be having children earlier (but wrong when they want it to be before the age of majority, or when they want to lower that age, or permit child marriage, or want to deny that couple sound sex education and medical care.)
mastermage 23 hours ago [-]
Just to also play the devils advocate, why SHOULD women be having children earlier. Its very much a very personal choice in their own freedom. I don't think this should be a political take at all. In this decision there is nothing any Government should have a say in.
hattmall 19 hours ago [-]
To have a longer life with their children...
It's not something government should regulate but it is something that government policy should incentivize.
YCpedohaven 17 hours ago [-]
> It's not something government should regulate but it is something that government policy should incentivize.
Every time this comes up, there are numerous instances reported of welfare states in Europe, Asia, etc. trying this and it not working.
The west, and especially the US is falling out of love with republicans and liberal democracy as they learn that some problems need to solved with an iron fist.
mindslight 16 hours ago [-]
The "iron fist" is merely creating new problems at an alarming rate. Sure, in theory a wise benevolent monarch could institute reforms that are hard in a democracy. In practice, the current crop is nothing but performative grifters and their cheerleaders are unwilling to draw the distinction.
superxpro12 16 hours ago [-]
Children are only children for about 10 years.... then they turn into teenagers and adults. this is nonsense.
TimorousBestie 19 hours ago [-]
> Just to also play the devils advocate, why SHOULD women be having children earlier.
Lower prevalence of complications, lower risk of death, lower risk of birth defects.
> Its very much a very personal choice in their own freedom.
We don’t disagree.
> I don't think this should be a political take at all. In this decision there is nothing any Government should have a say in.
Unfortunately, Americans don’t live in that world. The government makes decisions that impact the health of pregnant mothers and children all the time.
jarjoura 1 days ago [-]
Who is "they" here?
Having a single-income parent in a two-parent home was the norm for most of US history. It's also still the norm outside of the US. Where is the evidence that children are worse off because both parents work? Kids (5+) barely spend any time at home during a typical work day, so I'm not sure what "they" are correct about.
How is it objectively correct that women should, on average, have children earlier? Sorry, but this is purely a subjective statement and women are free to agree or disagree with that statement.
Having been raised by my grandparents, I personally believe the only secret for success is to show up for children, and love them and provide them a stable environment to thrive in. Everything else is just window dressing.
watwut 23 hours ago [-]
> Having a single-income parent in a two-parent home was the norm for most of US history.
You dont really have income and non income on a household farm. You have patriarch making decisions and everybody else working. This included slave owning farms where she had managing/organizing responsibilities.
Also, women in lower classes needed income and did worked for it. They did not had professional occupations and they were responsible for children, so it was things that fit into those boundaries - low income non professional work. But it was not really done for funsies. Then again, kids as small as 5 were left to handle by themselves and older kids were supposed to contribute.
It is really incomparable to being stay at home parent now, isolated and literally having nothing useful to do except existing and playing.
TimorousBestie 19 hours ago [-]
> Who is "they" here?
Sorry, I thought it was clear from the context that these are widely-held, American right-wing opinions that I happen to agree with.
> How is it objectively correct that women should, on average, have children earlier?
There are a few specific birth defects that are more common in younger mothers but most become much more common as the mother ages, and the overall risk of complication & death increases with maternal age.
> Having been raised by my grandparents, I personally believe the only secret for success is to show up for children, and love them and provide them a stable environment to thrive in. Everything else is just window dressing.
That’s a great sentiment but of little practical use in deciding policy.
jarjoura 8 hours ago [-]
Ah, sorry, I guess I'm not sure what it is you're actually debating needs to be fixed. Are children being born today with more birth defects and we (society) now want to concern ourselves with the issue that if parents want to have children, they need to plan for it and start earlier? Is that what a supposed objective policy would try to address?
Men also have a clock and birth defects are known to go up the older they are. So this can't be limited to women regardless of policy decisions.
I'm also not sure there could be any actual conversative government policy that could fix what is ultimately a financial incentives problem. Lots of parents would start earlier if they were able to have things like home ownership and space to raise kids in, and education systems that don't skew towards needing upper middle class levels of access to. Any potential new idea with any realistic long term fix would end up looking quite progressive and in our current hostile environment become a no-go for any conservative political appointee.
paulddraper 1 days ago [-]
* Markets should be free
* Theft should be punished
* There should be educational choice
A lot of this depends what you consider to be “right” wing.
mghackerlady 17 hours ago [-]
Markets being completely free got us in this mess, and while sound on paper has so many potential ways to go wrong it should be controlled by the working class either directly or indirectly through voting
Theft is a symptom, not a disease. Eliminate the disease and theft effectively disappears
Educational choice deserves to be respected so long as it isn't being used to propagate objectively false information
paulddraper 8 hours ago [-]
Theft is a symptom of theft being permitted.
Stores don’t lock up food.
AnimalMuppet 17 hours ago [-]
> Markets being completely free got us in this mess, and while sound on paper has so many potential ways to go wrong it should be controlled by the working class either directly or indirectly through voting
Is that what got us into this mess? (Which mess?) Take medical care, for instance. Is that a free market? Not really, no.
I mean, there are clearly markets that can be too free. No, you can't put poison in food and call it "free market". You can't roll through the farmer's market with guns and take everybody's stuff and call it "free market". There is a level of regulation where markets work best, and they work worse with either too much or too little regulation.
But something like the medical market... most people can't shop around for insurance; their employer works with only one insurer. Most people can't shop around freely for doctors; they have to go to someone within their plan. And so on. That's not even close to a free market.
> Theft is a symptom, not a disease. Eliminate the disease and theft effectively disappears
Great. Now tell us what you think the disease is, and how you think we should eliminate it.
> Educational choice deserves to be respected so long as it isn't being used to propagate objectively false information
And who is going to authoritatively determine what is objectively false? You just appointed that person dictator of the educational system. (See previous remarks about free markets.)
mghackerlady 16 hours ago [-]
The disease is poverty most of the time, if not directly then indirectly. Solving it is wealth redistribution at a massive scale but unfortunately our masters need another yacht
superxpro12 17 hours ago [-]
The educational system was working pretty well in terms of objectivity until the right wing started screaming about kids pissing in litter boxes and universities censoring right wing ideology.
The reality is that right wing ideology is unpopular when exposed to objective discussion. Turns out most people dont agree those concepts.
So now we have an administration who's actively working to censor universities to compel speech and censor ideas it doesnt like via lawsuits, executive orders, and funding elimination.
watwut 23 hours ago [-]
Neither of these is right wing value. They are right wing talking points right uses when it suits them and completely ignores when it does not suit them.
red-iron-pine 18 hours ago [-]
to put a finer point on it, those points exist where they have vested interests in extracting value out of those fields.
no large right wing doner wants a free market, they want their restrictions removed, and to have a monopoly to the fullest extent
rcbdev 1 days ago [-]
People like you really lost the plot on nuance.
23 hours ago [-]
TimorousBestie 1 days ago [-]
> The core fiction that enables the university to work is a dedication to 'truth' and progress through discussion. . . . That breaks down when there isn't open discussion on campus.
Umberto Eco, “Ur-Fascism”: “Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering’s alleged statement (“When I hear talk of culture I reach for my gun”) to the frequent use of such expressions as “degenerate intellectuals,” “eggheads,” “effete snobs,” “universities are a nest of reds.””
> The left now holds a place of orthodoxy in the universities and power structures.
Eco: “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
> Whether the 'right' can break it back into an enforced balance is yet to be seen. . . . The opposition needs to “live” somewhere!
Eco: “However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Oh no, a group consisting of people applying scientific methodology and 20 year olds is quite fond of an objectively scientific and idealist political philosophy. Color me shocked
Yes, the Trump administration fucked over a decade of university research with his weird DEI campaign. That same fuckery also blew up all kinds of research grants not tied to universities. I'm sure some of us here know someone directly impacted by that decision. It was cruel and ruthless.
Otherwise, everything else that article talks about is a nothing-burger.
I can't tell you my professors' political beliefs, nor did I care. I went to school to learn about the world and topics that interested me. If there was a professor who tried to radicalize me or speak about things I didn't agree with, I would have dropped the class.
Some students are like me, and are there loving the process of learning. Other students couldn't care less, and are happy just to get the grade and get out of there. Either way, if a teacher is going to make a course an extension of their personal beliefs, I highly doubt any student will suddenly assimilate if they didn't already agree. They'll just bitch to their friends that the professor is some wacko, and roll their eyes.
No no, some conservatives are just trying to do what they love doing and that's get academics worked up and divided for empty rhetoric.
superxpro12 16 hours ago [-]
The whole point is censorship of ideals right wing deems unfavorable.
Throughout my entire education, not once did I have to deal with a professor who was some ideological firebrand.
The right has invented a narrative to falsely justify their efforts to censor all education and shape nationwide discourse in their favor. Because they can't win any other way.
godsinhisheaven 1 days ago [-]
I liked the article, but I feel like this article, and many artices like, only hint or brush at truly one of the largest issues for conservatives: the numbers game. Strong majorities of professors, in pretty much every college in the United States, range from liberal to marxist. There just aren't enough conservative professors to go around! How many conservative professors even exist in the United States? 500? Maybe? Seems high honestly. (And of those, perhaps a dozen are actually honest to goodness God-fearing Conservatives, and not just libertarians.) So to me, it's no wonder that universities are such a target, pretty much everyone who staffs them, everyone who teaches at them, and everyone who attends them, is liberal.
add-sub-mul-div 1 days ago [-]
It's not the fault of universities that education is incongruous with certain values like fear of change and progress.
pfannkuchen 1 days ago [-]
It’s not the fault of the church that faith is incongruous with certain values like sin and blasphemy.
Terretta 20 hours ago [-]
Certainly it is, as the church defines the terms.
pfannkuchen 12 hours ago [-]
Just like “progress”!
(Seems I was missing a /s)
pfannkuchen 37 minutes ago [-]
Just in case: I am saying that the progress being referred to is progress in a particular direction, and that direction is a chosen one, and the choice is made by humans without any actual scientific basis.
Just like blasphemy etc in religion have no actual basis aside from being in a direction other than the direction of the religion.
To one group progress looks a lot different from what it looks like to another group, we can’t just say “progress” any more than we can say “blasphemy”.
TimorousBestie 19 hours ago [-]
Historically, the Protestant and Catholic churches invested very heavily in liberal arts education in America; initially, more than the state did. The university (and even the liberal arts college) as an institution isn’t fundamentally incompatible with Christianity.
graemep 16 hours ago [-]
Even more so in the case of early European universities.
add-sub-mul-div 17 hours ago [-]
If that was true I wouldn't be reluctant to leave my son alone with a priest.
mghackerlady 17 hours ago [-]
Daughter as well, seems to be more of a protestant thing though
paulddraper 1 days ago [-]
> incongruous with certain values like fear of change and progress
There’s roughly 1.5 million post-secondary instructors in the United States, roughly half full-time.
Estimates of conservative faculty range between 7-15%. (FIRE, where the 15% figure comes from, probably overestimates due to their conservative bias.)
So approximately 50,000 to 110,000 conservative faculty. You’re off by a couple orders of magnitude.
There’s over 500 faculty working at Liberty University alone, never mind the other, larger Evangelical Christian schools.
godsinhisheaven 12 hours ago [-]
Should've added to my comment, aside from the explicitly conservative colleges/unis, and seminaries. Filter those out, and how many do you have left? Still probably more than I was expecting, but still not many in the grand scheme of things.
fakedang 20 hours ago [-]
Bro forgot that Christian universities exist in the deep south. Heck, BYU and TAMU are feeder schools for the CIA.
mindslight 16 hours ago [-]
Right and left are two modes of political thought. If you want to get to the real truths of matters, it is necessary to hop between both rather than following either one off into the weeds.
Of course institutions tasked with coming up with new lofty ideas and fleshing out large all-encompassing paradigms are going to be full of people who are biased towards leftist thought! Just as how police officers, who deal with a never ending stream of shitheads every day, are biased towards rightist thought.
The real core problem here is this framing of "liberals" as an outright enemy, rather than as fellow citizens to have a dialog with, as advanced by the right wing media machine over the past several decades.
The appropriate framing is rather how we create checks on these institutions to keep them from running off into the weeds. Both for wider society, and also for the effectiveness of the institutions themselves. And that's certainly not with just outright destruction as the overly simplistic populism has settled into.
That breaks down when there isn't open discussion on campus. Communists were jeered but essentially allowed on campus in the 60s and 70s, even at the height of the cold war.
The left now holds a place of orthodoxy in the universities and power structures. Whether the 'right' can break it back into an enforced balance is yet to be seen.
Until then, the central tie of an otherwise diverse institution will break down and break into fragments. Which would be a shame. The opposition needs to "live" somewhere!
Note that the current wave of attacks are all justified by safetyism, they're pushed by an anti-semitism task force that's encompassed any anti-war sentiment.
Not if they're systematically wrong about everything. There's no need to keep an intellectual disease vector in the academy any more than there would be a moral obligation to open your windows to the malaria mosquitos.
Climate change and medicine are the largest, most visible aspects of this, but it's intellectual dishonesty all the way down.
Note that this has got much worse since about the Obama era. There are no true small-c conservative intellectuals any more.
I think that's a misleading telling of the history. During the 40s and 50s a lot of people were fired for suspected or real links to communism and some schools even demanded loyalty oaths. Courts struck down a bunch of laws that were used to fire people but many rulings didn't land until the 60s. Angela Davis was famously fired in 1969.
I disagree that it should always be the woman staying home (or always the same parent through the children’s adolescence, or that both parents should have different genders, or) but I think the premise is sound.
They’re also objectively correct that women should, on average, be having children earlier (but wrong when they want it to be before the age of majority, or when they want to lower that age, or permit child marriage, or want to deny that couple sound sex education and medical care.)
It's not something government should regulate but it is something that government policy should incentivize.
Every time this comes up, there are numerous instances reported of welfare states in Europe, Asia, etc. trying this and it not working.
The west, and especially the US is falling out of love with republicans and liberal democracy as they learn that some problems need to solved with an iron fist.
Lower prevalence of complications, lower risk of death, lower risk of birth defects.
> Its very much a very personal choice in their own freedom.
We don’t disagree.
> I don't think this should be a political take at all. In this decision there is nothing any Government should have a say in.
Unfortunately, Americans don’t live in that world. The government makes decisions that impact the health of pregnant mothers and children all the time.
Having a single-income parent in a two-parent home was the norm for most of US history. It's also still the norm outside of the US. Where is the evidence that children are worse off because both parents work? Kids (5+) barely spend any time at home during a typical work day, so I'm not sure what "they" are correct about.
How is it objectively correct that women should, on average, have children earlier? Sorry, but this is purely a subjective statement and women are free to agree or disagree with that statement.
Having been raised by my grandparents, I personally believe the only secret for success is to show up for children, and love them and provide them a stable environment to thrive in. Everything else is just window dressing.
You dont really have income and non income on a household farm. You have patriarch making decisions and everybody else working. This included slave owning farms where she had managing/organizing responsibilities.
Also, women in lower classes needed income and did worked for it. They did not had professional occupations and they were responsible for children, so it was things that fit into those boundaries - low income non professional work. But it was not really done for funsies. Then again, kids as small as 5 were left to handle by themselves and older kids were supposed to contribute.
It is really incomparable to being stay at home parent now, isolated and literally having nothing useful to do except existing and playing.
Sorry, I thought it was clear from the context that these are widely-held, American right-wing opinions that I happen to agree with.
> How is it objectively correct that women should, on average, have children earlier?
There are a few specific birth defects that are more common in younger mothers but most become much more common as the mother ages, and the overall risk of complication & death increases with maternal age.
> Having been raised by my grandparents, I personally believe the only secret for success is to show up for children, and love them and provide them a stable environment to thrive in. Everything else is just window dressing.
That’s a great sentiment but of little practical use in deciding policy.
Men also have a clock and birth defects are known to go up the older they are. So this can't be limited to women regardless of policy decisions.
I'm also not sure there could be any actual conversative government policy that could fix what is ultimately a financial incentives problem. Lots of parents would start earlier if they were able to have things like home ownership and space to raise kids in, and education systems that don't skew towards needing upper middle class levels of access to. Any potential new idea with any realistic long term fix would end up looking quite progressive and in our current hostile environment become a no-go for any conservative political appointee.
* Theft should be punished
* There should be educational choice
A lot of this depends what you consider to be “right” wing.
Theft is a symptom, not a disease. Eliminate the disease and theft effectively disappears
Educational choice deserves to be respected so long as it isn't being used to propagate objectively false information
Stores don’t lock up food.
Is that what got us into this mess? (Which mess?) Take medical care, for instance. Is that a free market? Not really, no.
I mean, there are clearly markets that can be too free. No, you can't put poison in food and call it "free market". You can't roll through the farmer's market with guns and take everybody's stuff and call it "free market". There is a level of regulation where markets work best, and they work worse with either too much or too little regulation.
But something like the medical market... most people can't shop around for insurance; their employer works with only one insurer. Most people can't shop around freely for doctors; they have to go to someone within their plan. And so on. That's not even close to a free market.
> Theft is a symptom, not a disease. Eliminate the disease and theft effectively disappears
Great. Now tell us what you think the disease is, and how you think we should eliminate it.
> Educational choice deserves to be respected so long as it isn't being used to propagate objectively false information
And who is going to authoritatively determine what is objectively false? You just appointed that person dictator of the educational system. (See previous remarks about free markets.)
The reality is that right wing ideology is unpopular when exposed to objective discussion. Turns out most people dont agree those concepts.
So now we have an administration who's actively working to censor universities to compel speech and censor ideas it doesnt like via lawsuits, executive orders, and funding elimination.
no large right wing doner wants a free market, they want their restrictions removed, and to have a monopoly to the fullest extent
Umberto Eco, “Ur-Fascism”: “Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering’s alleged statement (“When I hear talk of culture I reach for my gun”) to the frequent use of such expressions as “degenerate intellectuals,” “eggheads,” “effete snobs,” “universities are a nest of reds.””
> The left now holds a place of orthodoxy in the universities and power structures.
Eco: “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
> Whether the 'right' can break it back into an enforced balance is yet to be seen. . . . The opposition needs to “live” somewhere!
Eco: “However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Yes, the Trump administration fucked over a decade of university research with his weird DEI campaign. That same fuckery also blew up all kinds of research grants not tied to universities. I'm sure some of us here know someone directly impacted by that decision. It was cruel and ruthless.
Otherwise, everything else that article talks about is a nothing-burger.
I can't tell you my professors' political beliefs, nor did I care. I went to school to learn about the world and topics that interested me. If there was a professor who tried to radicalize me or speak about things I didn't agree with, I would have dropped the class.
Some students are like me, and are there loving the process of learning. Other students couldn't care less, and are happy just to get the grade and get out of there. Either way, if a teacher is going to make a course an extension of their personal beliefs, I highly doubt any student will suddenly assimilate if they didn't already agree. They'll just bitch to their friends that the professor is some wacko, and roll their eyes.
No no, some conservatives are just trying to do what they love doing and that's get academics worked up and divided for empty rhetoric.
Throughout my entire education, not once did I have to deal with a professor who was some ideological firebrand.
The right has invented a narrative to falsely justify their efforts to censor all education and shape nationwide discourse in their favor. Because they can't win any other way.
(Seems I was missing a /s)
Just like blasphemy etc in religion have no actual basis aside from being in a direction other than the direction of the religion.
To one group progress looks a lot different from what it looks like to another group, we can’t just say “progress” any more than we can say “blasphemy”.
I essentially agree.
Though “progress” connotes improvement.
Brave New World was extremely “progressive.”
There’s roughly 1.5 million post-secondary instructors in the United States, roughly half full-time.
Estimates of conservative faculty range between 7-15%. (FIRE, where the 15% figure comes from, probably overestimates due to their conservative bias.)
So approximately 50,000 to 110,000 conservative faculty. You’re off by a couple orders of magnitude.
There’s over 500 faculty working at Liberty University alone, never mind the other, larger Evangelical Christian schools.
Of course institutions tasked with coming up with new lofty ideas and fleshing out large all-encompassing paradigms are going to be full of people who are biased towards leftist thought! Just as how police officers, who deal with a never ending stream of shitheads every day, are biased towards rightist thought.
The real core problem here is this framing of "liberals" as an outright enemy, rather than as fellow citizens to have a dialog with, as advanced by the right wing media machine over the past several decades.
The appropriate framing is rather how we create checks on these institutions to keep them from running off into the weeds. Both for wider society, and also for the effectiveness of the institutions themselves. And that's certainly not with just outright destruction as the overly simplistic populism has settled into.